Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interior

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smwalker
Posts: 1604
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:44 am
Location: Azusa,CA

Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interior

Post by smwalker » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:57 am

Been in discussion recently with some G8 guys and a Caprice owner on FB who are experiencing pools of water in their floor / carpet. This is usually after a rain storm. Source has been narrowed down in some cases to a poor seal on the vapor barrier at the bottom of the door. I will go into how this system works and remedies that can be employed.


Evidence
So first you must determine if your leak is coming in from the door at all. As you know our cars with lots of holes drilled in them in their life we could have multiple sources for leaks. For another thread where some leaky culprits were found check the thread on Water Leaking Into Interior.

These pictures are from a G8 owner and this evidence is the key indicator that something is wrong with your vapor barrier in the door. You could probably see this evidence after a good long car wash as well. He wrote:

Every time it rains, the floor behind the driver seat is wet. Right now, the only lead I've got is these two things. There is water in the groove in the weatherstripping on both driver side doors, along the red lines, and drips in the yellow circle under the driver door.

Image Image

These are from a Caprice owner and if you see water dripping off the interior side of a door that is a dead giveaway:
Image Image

In fact where the 3-4 door drains are located the only place you should see water that has drained from the door is along the outer part of the door sill and on the painted top of the rocker panel. Green line in below picture illustrates where acceptable water would be:
Image


Investigation
So first lets look at the entry point as that might be a secondary thing to get fixed along the way. The horizontal exterior window seal is where the water comes into the cavity of the door. The doors are designed to have water get in them through this seal. Because the face of this seal is felt (has to be to let window slide past it when going down) standing water on the tip of it will just migrate through the seal. The water that gets though the first seal is caught by a secondary seal that has a U channel in it that should direct it to the front or rear of the door (depending if you are pointing up hill or down hill) and drop it down the outer ends of the door cavity (away from window motor, regulator, wiring). On the G8's these outer window seals have been know to deteriorate, so we got that to look forward to. Make sure yours is in one piece with no holes and it is making contact with the face of the glass when the glass is fully rolled up. Here is a side shot of a window seal in good condition you can see the first and second seals.

Image

So if these seals are in bad condition replacing them won't fix your problem as water is designed to get past them. But fixing them may stop the quantity of water that the vapor barrier has to deal with and that will become important with the remedy we discuss next.

Next step is to get a look at the vapor barrier. That means taking off the door panel. Will see if I can link to a good description on how to do that. But once you get it off you want to one, confirm you actually have a vapor barrier, that may have been removed in the decommission process for some reason. If you have one make sure there are no tears in it in the lower part (top part has holes for wires and door lock cables but those are to high to let any water through). If it looks in good condition turn your attention to the butyl rubber seal along the bottom or the vapor barrier where it meets, sticks to the door. What you might find here is it has come detached from the door or it has a kink in it that creates a channel that would allow water past it. What I have determined, which is amazing, is that this seal is supposed to hold water back. In other words they designed it to collect "some" water. Not sure I care for that. Hate having standing water next to metal.

So here is my bottom door seal. Looked to be in good shape.

Image

I have removed it a few times to do various mods. Always just sort of stuck it back on there not giving it much thought. But then I started to look closer at it and what I saw was micro debris. That is either silt or rusted metal shavings that seem to have been transported there in water then left behind once the water evaporates from the space. It was all along the bottom of the seal. So the conclusion I came to is some water gets held here and if the seal was bad it would come down the into the interior of the car.
Image Image

Being curios and having the outside window seal removed for that picture I though i would conduct a test. I sprayed the exterior of the rolled up window with glass cleaner to see where the water would fall on the vapor barrier. What I saw was interesting. Most of the water that falls on the vapor barrier gets dropped into the cavity of the door with a natural "sill" the Holden designers designed into the vapor barrier (this is the front door, not sure about the rear). In this picture you can see where the cleaners starts to hit the barrier and where it pools to drip off into the cavity.

Image Image


Remedies / Fixes

Replace - Well the obvious fix it to beef up or replace the butyl rubber seal at the bottom of the vapor barrier. As I have removed mine and reinstalled it a few times it seems to loose some stickiness each time. You can get a roll of new butyl rubber from various sources. 3M calls it "Window Weld Sealer" and the key things you want to look for is that it is round and not flat like tape. Sizes seem to range from 5/16 to 3/8 of an inch. Bigger the better I say, it will always compress.

Not sure if it would be worth it to remove all the old butyl rubber from the vapor barrier as it would be pretty hard to do and may end up damaging the barrier in the process. I would put it right next to the old stuff in a continuous bead all along the bottom. I would clean off, or at least knock down big glops, of old butyl rubber sticking to the door using lacquer thinner, alcohol or the like to make sure all the micro debris I mention earlier is gone and you have a good surface to stick the new stuff to. Then use a roller of some type to make sure you get a good continuous seal. I got a roller when I did my sound deadening project but I think you can get something like this in the flooring dept at Home Depot:
Image

Drip Rail - Although I have not done this yet I think a good lesson I learned from This Old House would come into play here. That is in order to control drips create a drip rail so when the water comes down the face of material something stops it and it is forced to drip. I would take some of that butyl rope and make a line at the bottom of the vapor barrier just past where it naturally drips. Something like the yellow line here:

Image

Barrier - The other idea I had was to create an inner barrier that rested on the inside of the door cavity and went as high as to get most of the water coming in and down to the bottom of the door cavity to keep water off the main vapor barrier entirely. Seems like that might be a bigger task keeping it out or the way of the glass and regulator assembly. Another idea I found, I think this was a Camaro, had a similar idea where they did not even try to seal up the vapor barrier at the bottom rather just lit it empty in to the door cavity throught a slit in the metal skin:
Image

So here's to hoping none of us have this issue but if you do chime in with how you solved it! Stay dry my friends.
Last edited by smwalker on Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve Walker
Azusa, CA
'11 PPV 9C3 Huron White

s/c'd cav
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Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interio

Post by s/c'd cav » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:35 am

the wife had found this after i had told her about our 14 leaking

https://gm.oemdtc.com/1442/floorcarpet- ... rice-ppv/4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

smwalker
Posts: 1604
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:44 am
Location: Azusa,CA

Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interio

Post by smwalker » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:04 am

s/c'd cav wrote:the wife had found this after i had told her about our 14 leaking

https://gm.oemdtc.com/1442/floorcarpet- ... rice-ppv/4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
EDIT: OOF looks like that site was sharing info without GM's permission.
Wonder if it is anywhere else? That was a good link.

Think I found a copy :
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2013/ ... 3-3912.pdf


OOh very nice. Start with page one and work your way through all the possibilities.

I still like my drip rail idea, gonna try that.
Steve Walker
Azusa, CA
'11 PPV 9C3 Huron White

s/c'd cav
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:12 am
Location: PHOENIX AZ

Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interio

Post by s/c'd cav » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:32 am

i think mine is something in the door causing it to leak over the top of the sill seal , which is likely the water barrier

smwalker
Posts: 1604
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:44 am
Location: Azusa,CA

Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interio

Post by smwalker » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:03 am

Did an attempt at adding an in door liner that directs water into the bottom of the door. Came out nice. plan on doing it to all the doors as the more testing I do the more I realize a lot of water gets in those doors. I think the ultimate would be taking out the window regulator and attaching it behind that and into the interior of the door skin but thats a bit much for now. Besides attaching n the out side of the door skin makes it removeable for service to the regulator and latch if needed.

I used a clear piece of vinyl I got at the craft store as they have it in big rolls. About 1 yard (by 4 feet) of it cost $5.00. They call it 8 Gauge vinyl but I guess it could be 8 MIL thick. They had it from 4 to 12 gauge. 8 seemed to be the good compromise of strong and flexible.

The actual stuff did not photograph very well so I used the liner that came with it to mock up where I would make the cuts to get the vinyl into the door:

Image

ALso added a new bead of Butyl rubber to the bottom of the factory liner to relseal that back up. Will get a pic of that on the passenger door next time.
Steve Walker
Azusa, CA
'11 PPV 9C3 Huron White

lastcall190
Posts: 377
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Location: North Jersey

Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interior

Post by lastcall190 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:22 pm

Just looking to bump this up and see if any brainstormers have any ideas:

Recently I had a real weird issue. I have had my car now for about 1.5yrs, been outside all that time, driven in everything. I have not ever had an issue with water in the car. I still DON'T, but what is happening confuses me. Recently I had the car aligned, and the next day, I was driving and heard some sloshing. I first thought it was water in the lower rocker panel. That alone would've confused me as it's NEVER happened. So I get home, tap the rocker, and it sounds quite hollow. I shake the door and hear the sloshing. So I pop off the front most push pin that secures the lower weather stripping, and water comes pouring out. I let it drain for over a minute. Strange.

Smash cut to this past Sunday, we had downpour from about 5am through to 6pm. Never stopped, rained all day, Caprice sat out in it, in addition to me washing it Saturday night. I drive the car to work Monday, and before leaving for work, I pop off the weather stripping clip again, and am greeted with... nothing. After 13hrs of straight rain, there is nothing. So I drive to work, we get a little rain in the evening, nothing crazy, park the car, and I hear sloshing. Never rolled window up or down all day. I go out this morning, another drain of the door...

The fact that it wasn't present after a full day's rain on Sunday is now more confusing. I am getting ZERO water on the door sill, or anywhere in the interior. Any ideas? Water must be getting in there somehow and getting to the bottom of the door, but it's just sitting there and not exiting through to the interior. Thanks all.

-J
2012 Caprice
!DOD : LS9 Cam : Pat G : Magnaflow : VCM

2008 CVPI
168k and going strong

smwalker
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Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interior

Post by smwalker » Wed May 15, 2019 1:25 am

Well the fact that no water is on the interior door sill just means your vapor barrier is sealed and doing it's job but all the water is getting into the door all the time. Now how it comes out the drain holes at the bottom if the dooris the issue. YOur rubber down there has gotten stiff enough that it is blocking the holes (or just one of the hole) . It is supposed to be pliable enough so seal out splashes but still let water out the door.

SO there are I think 4 drain holes underneath that bottom rubber strip. Park facing down and the front hole does all the draining. Park on an incline and the rear one does all the draining. If Both of the end holes are blocked the the middle ones will do the draining as you drive - is in theory how it should work.

I am wondering if it would not be a good idea to notch out the rubber to clear the holes as the rubber gets older and stiffer to allow for easier drainage.

ANd of course make sure they are clear of debris.
Steve Walker
Azusa, CA
'11 PPV 9C3 Huron White

lastcall190
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:17 am
Location: North Jersey

Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interior

Post by lastcall190 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:58 am

Thanks... you know that all makes sense, and when I thought about it more this morning and the items you mentioned, I realized what when I put the fender liner on after the LCA replacements, it wasn't lining up too well with the side skirt. I eventually got one of the screws in, not cross threaded, but I thought maybe if the side skirt was pressing up against the door, it would be blocking the front drain. Hmm...

Side note, my driver's door hinge is f---ed, which is causing the door to sag a bit. That can't help, by any means, so maybe I should vault that up the list of to-dos.

I appreciate the thoughts!

-J
2012 Caprice
!DOD : LS9 Cam : Pat G : Magnaflow : VCM

2008 CVPI
168k and going strong

lastcall190
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:17 am
Location: North Jersey

Re: Water Leaking Through Doors - Leak into Carpet / Interior

Post by lastcall190 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:35 pm

Forgot I even posted in this thread.

This past weekend I washed the car with my power washer, and took note of if any water went into the doors. Granted it wasn't a constant slamming of water like a rain storm, but there was none. However this time I got some results like what Steve initially posted. So that's another issue, but in the meantime I pulled the weather stripping off the bottom of the door, and it looked like there were these little oblong holes in the door skin that were gummed up with various bits of grime/wildlife. I cleared them out, cleaned off the weather stripping of similar crap, and cleaned up all the yellow retainers that had even still... more junk in them. Seems like that could have had something to do with things filling with water. Put everything back, and time will tell. We haven't had a ton of rain to even see how it had been leading up to yesterday.

-J
2012 Caprice
!DOD : LS9 Cam : Pat G : Magnaflow : VCM

2008 CVPI
168k and going strong

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