brake service at 15K miles

Suspension, brake, and hydraulic/electric steering discussion.
Navy Lifer
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brake service at 15K miles

Post by Navy Lifer »

Some basic observations:

Major brake dust with the OE PPV front brake pads. What to do? Trying Camaro OE pads, same FMSI spec (D-1404). GM PN is 92230269, includes new shims.

There was beginning to be a slight "flutter"--more noise ("wowowowo") than pedal feel on braking, which I attribute to rotor thickness variation (NOT what I consider warping), mainly from pad material transfer to rotor faces....some might call it glazing, some might say warped.

Significant ridge--rotor specs are 30.0mm new, 28.5mm discard. The rotors on the car measured 29.2mm (1.15"), which is over 50% worn--in just 15K miles! The stock pads are quite aggressive!

The rotors were mounted on a brake lathe and the ridge was removed at the outer edge only. No runout issues, and surfaces were reasonably smooth. Did NOT turn/cut the rotors otherwise, but instead used a Flex-hone from Brush Research to clean away any deposits of the OE pad material and leave a non-directional finish on the rotor cheeks for the Camaro pads to seat on. The rotors were left on the lathe and just turned at low speed while the Flex-hone process was applied.

After cutting & flex-honing, the rotors were washed in a water/soap mix using an oil-free & perfume-free detergent, then air-dried. NO brake cleaner was used in the servicing of the front brakes.

While I had the rotors off, I removed the inner splash shields, secured by 3 small bolts. I'll explain more about that later.

The R&R procedures very specifically called for replacement of the caliper bracket bolts and the caliper slide pin mounting bolts. I was not aware of this, and have not yet complied--had no new fasteners on hand. Torque values are 44 lb/ft +90 degrees for the larger bracket bolts (14mm thread, 18mm hex head), and 20 lb/ft for the smaller slide pin bolts (14mm hex head).

Oct 28 update:
After 500+ miles on a road trip, I can report that dusting is significantly reduced compared to the production PPV pads. Brake squeal in front is gone.

Pedal is OK, but not "as firm" and pads clearly have less initial bite than PPV production pads. This may be too much compromise for some compared to PPV pads, just for the sake of reduced dust (and--I suspect--reduced rotor wear)....regardless of difference in wear rate of the rotors, which is yet to be evaluated with the Camaro pads on PPV.

Pedal feel with any floating caliper is likely to move folks in the direction of a GXP/Camaro/CTS-V fixed 4-piston or 6-piston caliper solution in the future. Wheel clearance requirements and wheel choices become the secondary issue to be considered with a brake change.






PPVbrake1.JPG
Navy Lifer
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Re: brake service at 15K miles - follow-up

Post by Navy Lifer »

Original post (above) now updated with pictures & more details

Here are 3 pictures after over 1000 miles on the road, no rain, no car wash, untouched, showing brake dust using Camaro pads. Consider that this was essentially the break-in period, so actual dusting level is probably somewhat less than what you see here. With PPV pads, I'd get more dust than this in under 100 miles!





Teaser:
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elc32955
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by elc32955 »

Interesting Bill. Thanks for the excellent write-up with pics. I'm just crossing the 30K threshold on my car so I'll probably need brakes soon, no squeal yet however. That's very suprising on how much active rotor surface is lost with the PPV brakes, going by your 15K wear figures x2 (for my 30K miles) I may possibly need both pads and rotors when I do brakes soon. Camaro pads sound much more attractive and if it keeps a good portion of the dust down... huzzah for the home team!
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by Pursuit »

Bill, great write up and attention to detail! Thanks for doing this research. I am looking forward to see what you are working on.

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Navy Lifer
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by Navy Lifer »

elc32955 wrote:....going by your 15K wear figures x2 (for my 30K miles) I may possibly need both pads and rotors when I do brakes soon.
Here's an interesting bit of information....the OE PPV front rotor and CTS J55 (V6 HD) front rotor are the same part, even though they have different part numbers. The PPV rotor package is labeled "Made in Australia" and the CTS rotor package is labeled "Made in Mexico". From comparing the actual parts, they are exactly the same part in every way, and both appear to me to be sourced from NA - Mexico. in spite of the PPV rotor package labeling--maybe that refers to the box or label!!!

Part Numbers:
Cadillac CTS J55
ACDelco 177-1065
GM 25946317

Chevrolet Caprice PPV
ACDelco 177-1122
GM 92260109

Pricing (GM Parts Direct & Rock Auto comparisons) - need to check with Dal, too.
Cadillac CTS J55
GMPD $86.95 each - delivered (outside NC)
R.A. $65.17 (before shipping or discount)

Chevrolet Caprice PPV
GMPD $94.79 each - delivered (outside NC)
R.A. $93.79 each (before shipping or discount)

All this is for reference, as there are plenty of other suppliers of replacement rotors listed at Rock Auto, for less money. The only caution I would mention is that many of the generic suppliers play fast & loose with the specs....here's a "for example" story:

I was contacted by a TBSS owner who was having front brake issues. The TBSS used a larger front rotor and twin-piston caliper similar to the C6 Corvette. Looking at Rock Auto, there were plenty of rotors that fit the vehicle, but when I was able to compare the OE-spec HD rotor that was unique to the TBSS with the standard TrailBlazer large diameter rotor (same specs--fit, form, function), and aftermarket generics, it turned out that the OE-spec TBSS rotor was heavier than every other variant, and the one noticeable difference was that it had a greater number of vanes, which explains the greater mass.

I don't know that the same issue could apply with the CTS/PPV rotor being discussed here, compared to aftermarket versions, but I mention this as a caution, just in case buying on price is more important than using the OE part. You may get what you pay for....

Finally, in an effort to get better rotors for PPV, I approached my contact at DBA (Disc Brakes Australia) some months ago. The development of an application takes time, and whenever the contact is made within 6 months of SEMA (which ends today), new products will generally not surface until some point after early November of each year. I was told we ought to see the DBA heavy duty Police Pursuit Series rotor for PPV early next year. How ironic that here's a car built in Australia, but there's been no effort to provide a DBA rotor for it until now!

http://www.dbausa.com/products/police-pursuit-series-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In fact, go to the DBA USA Facebook page and leave an inquiry about when they will have PPV rotors available: https://www.facebook.com/DBAUSA?hc_location=stream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by BlackGT5 »

Just an FYI...

The OEM front PPV pad material (HP1000/1 as Bill showed above) is considered a high performance friction material made by Federal Mogul. Used quite often by Brembo. Stock on the Camaro SS and G8 GXP front brakes as well as many, many more applications. It has a high steel content as well as abrasives which help with fade concerns but can be noisy and are very dusty.

The non SS Camaro pads which Bill used are a Non Asbestos Organic (NAO) material called BM112 made by a company in Australia called FMP (marketers of the Bendix brand in Australia). This material does not have any steel but does have copper and various abrasives. This material is used in the G8 front and rear. I believe the PPV rears also since the brakes should be the same as G8 rears.
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elc32955
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by elc32955 »

Just a quick update, I'm at 33K and change right now and I'm starting to hear the squealer from the rear, so it's time for 4 wheel brakes. I'll make sure to get the rotor thickness measurement when they get swapped out so we have an idea of what full lifespan wear on the rotors with stock PPV pads is going to be. Bill, from your earlier post with over 50% rotor wear at 15K miles I wouldn't be suprised if I'm told to r&r at least the front rotors due to busting minimums. I'm double those miles plus some right now.

I am very, very tempted to use the Camaro pads in front as my wheels get very, very dusty as well (as I'm sure everyone's that's running stock brakes do). Any more word from DBA before I drop the hammer on brakes?

Thanks
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by The Tech »

Okay Bill, I've waited long enough. Tell me about the duct in the photo marked teaser. I am starting my mods for Power Tour '14 and need to know if there are more additions I need.
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Navy Lifer
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by Navy Lifer »

Tom, I'll get that info up soon.....in the meantime, here's something else to ponder:

http://www.lapponline.com/index.php?mai ... 89_109_110
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Re: brake service at 15K miles

Post by elc32955 »

Local dealership never fails to meet expectations for attempted profit intake. For 4-wheel pads only on my car they quoted $602 this afternoon.....
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